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Грција-постоење,јазик,народ и писмо

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    Испратена: 19.Октомври.2007 во 16:45
Привет,

на няколко пъти Буги казва, че Гърция е нова държава, и че терминът грък и гръцки е съвсем нов и няма нищо общо с древните гърци (атиняни, спартанци, делфийци и прочие).

Понеже тези коментари все се появяват в рамките на други теми бих искал Буги да обясни по-подробно тезата си.

Аристотел, Сократ, Питагор, Демонстен и Омир гърци ли са или не? Езикът, на който са говорили и писали, гръцки ли е или не?

Ако и на двата въпроса Буги успее да отговори с "не", тогава ще се радвам ако успее да отговори на следния въпрос: "Кога се появяват гърците с техния гръцки език и писмо?"

Предполагам, че Буги няма да има особени проблеми да развие и защити позицията си понеже тук на този форум едва ли ще дойде някой грък да пише на македонски (или български) и да спори с него.

Поздрав,
Венелин


Изменето од venstar - 19.Октомври.2007 во 17:06
Всичко изпитвайте,
дръжте доброто!
(1 Сол. 5:21)
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Слобода или Смрт

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ОООООООО ВЕНЕЛИН

Пак наврати и сега голем интерес за Грците.
ОК знаеш дека јас дијалог со тебе не одбивамсреќа

Вака ај да почнеме од почетокот - писмото

Кој го крсти писмото грчко или античко грчко?
Дали некаде имаш видено античка пара со името Грција,напишано на таканаречениот Грчки?Еве ти го името Македонија
The%20image%20“http://vest.com.mk/images/%7B3E1AC19F-5504-4C29-9E7E-E89C3CF54160%7D_pasko-2.jpg”%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.

Сега доаѓа главното - зошто никаде и никој не ја спомнува Грција,Демостен зборува дека Македонците се варвари и различно зборуваат од Атињаните а не Грците.Дали на крајот Грција ке излезе една голема Холивудска пропаганда без никаков запис?

Во античките мапи дури и средновековните римски и византиски никаде не е запишана Грција како Грција туку се гледаат Македонија,Тесалија,Дарданија,Епир,Мореа и Тракија дури и Илирија иако не била држава.

Па Венелин еве размислувај зошто и како па може ти ке ми дадеш логично размислувањесреќа
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Originally posted by venstar venstar напиша:


**********************


Prvinta definiraj sho e NAROD, pa poslem mozhe da se diskutira dali Grcite se Narod.


u megjuvremeno eve ti mal osvrt za toa dali sa bile u antikata narod ili ne:

Цитирај

The Macedonians, the Greeks, and the Communists

Dr. Muhammad Shamsaddin Megalommatis


Orientalist, Historian, Political Scientist, Dr. Megalommatis, 50, is the author of 12 books, dozens of scholarly articles, hundreds of encyclopedia entries, and thousands of articles. He speaks, reads and writes more than 15, modern and ancient, languages. He refuted Greek nationalism, supported Martin Bernal’s Black Athena, and rejected the Greco-Romano-centric version of History. He pleaded for the European History by J. B. Duroselle, and defended the rights of the Turkish, Pomak, Macedonian, Vlachian, Arvanitic, Latin Catholic, and Jewish minorities of Greece. Born Christian Orthodox, he adhered to Islam when 36, devoted to ideas of Muhyieldin Ibn al Arabi.

Greek citizen of Turkish origin, Prof. Megalommatis studied and/or worked in Turkey, Greece, France, England, Belgium, Germany, Syria, Israel, Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Russia, and carried out research trips throughout the Middle East, Northeastern Africa and Central Asia. His career extended from Research & Education, Journalism, Publications, Photography, and Translation to Website Development, Human Rights Advocacy, Marketing, Sales & Brokerage. He traveled in more than 80 countries in 5 continents. He defends the Right of Aramaeans, Oromos, Ogadenis, Sidamas, Berbers, Darfuris, and Bejas to National Independence, demands international recognition for Kosovo, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, and Transnistria, calls for National Unity in Somalia, and denounces Islamic Terrorism.


The Macedonians, the Greeks, and the Communists

By Prof. Dr. Muhammad Shamsaddin Megalommatis

The Balkan peninsula has long been considered as Europe’s tinderbox; and with good reason! With so many languages, ethnic groups (or peoples), and religious systems, the Balkans lived their most peaceful period of their millennia long history during the Ottoman rule that last lasted between 400 and 600 years (per different regions). As natural continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Sublime Gate ensured peace and tolerance to a great number of peoples at a time of merciless and inhuman wars in the multi-divided and constantly disputed territories of the defunct Western Empire. The Ottoman Empire’s scholarly, scientific and artistic superiority over the various state forms of Western Europe was undisputed until the beginning of the 17th century. However, the rise to preponderance of a bogus-Islamic, theological – ideological sect, namely the Hanbalite followers of Ibn Taimiya and his obscurantist and barbaric system, led the Ottoman Empire to collapse and the Islamic Civilization to definite and irreversible extinction. From 1600 to 1800 the Ottoman Empire became the Sick Man of Europe, and a century later it died out. The parallel rise of the Western European nationalist and colonialist states exposed the Balkan peoples to hatred, discord, local conflicts and regional wars that have not ended so far.

Macedonia

If the Balkans have been identified as home a great number of well diversified peoples and cultures, their best miniature is by definition Macedonia; at this point we use the name as geographical term encompassing preset territories of the Republic of Macedonia, Greece and Bulgaria. Macedonia was for millennia long inhabited by the Macedonians, an ancient people – markedly different than the surrounding Ancient Thracians, Illyrians, Pelasgians, Phrygians, Hittites, and Greeks.

The best revelator of the dramatic differences that separated the Macedonians from the Greeks in as late periods as the reigns of Philip and Alexander II of Macedonia are Demosthenes and a pleiad of orators, philosophers and illustrious statesmen, who did not accept Alexander II as possible leader – let alone King or Emperor – of the Greeks.

There are many reasons for this, and one must bear in mind that the Ancient Greeks were never a people, let alone country! The Achaeans, the Ionians, and the Aeolians had always difficulties either to understand one another (so different their respective languages were) or to merge into one country. The Dorians have been considered as alien element, and the struggle of the three former peoples against the earlier substrate of the Pelasgians has been illustrated from epics to drama. To some of these peoples the Semitic Phoenicians were apparently closer, and we know very well that without the Phoenician colonies in the Aegean Sea and the Phoenician infiltration in Athens, there would never be a sort of democratic society in Attica; it was all imported. Others were certainly closer to the Hittites, particularly the earliest element, the Achaeans. Thanks to otherwise prohibited Hittite texts, we know that the Ahhijawa (Achaean) crown prince at (probably) Mycenae spent time with his relatives and friends at Hattushas, the capital of the Hittite Empire, in the east of Ankara, Turkey. The Aeolians seem to have been closer to the Lydians at the westernmost confines of today’s Turkey. All this serves as example of the falsification of the Ancient History of the Balkans at the hands of colonial, mainly French and English, academic compilers whose works were to be imitated by German, Italian and Russian scholarly competitors, who however never questioned the nature of the colonial fabrication.

Greece

So diverse and inimical to one another the ancient Greek states have been that we can hardly use one appellation to regroup them. The only purpose of forging such a term – that existed for the Ancient Romans as geographical term only – was the modern European colonial powers’ need for academic, scientific, cultural, educational, political and economic control of vast areas they had planned to subdue.

The false model did not represent local knowledge of past, and did not reflect local ideas of History, local values and local cultures. It was exported before the arrival of the military; under pretext of interest for the past, a preconceived, false, vicious and malignantly inhuman version of History was venomously diffused for decades before the arrival of the political agents and the naval forces. Ultimately, this false model engulfed these colonial powers to numerous wars of which they have been victims as well.

How could a version of History that idealizes a ‘Civil War’ (it was a civil war but was presented as such; in Ancient Greek texts it was simply called through geographical terms, Peloponnesiakos polemos, War of / around Peloponnesus) can possibly motivate positively and bring forth anything good for those upon whom it is imposed?

The various Ancient Greek peoples had managed to accept a Supreme Religious and Spiritual Authority: the Oracle at Delphes. When the Macedonians accepted the Achaemenidian Iranian supremacy, the Oracle given to representatives of various Greek states at Delphes was to ultimately accept the rule of Persepolis, a vast universalist and tolerant empire that regrouped all lands between India and Italy. There was no difference East – West according to the supreme knowledge of the Oracle Wise Priests and Elders! Unfortunately, the alien element, the Dorian Spartans, convinced the rest to apostasy. For the blasphemous and perverse needs of this political attitude, a former ‘journalist’ was hired to write anti-imperial pamphlets that became sort of unsolicited, bogus-History, Herodotus. For the imperial needs of modern European colonialists, the Carian (born at Halicarnassus, Caria) – not Greek – impostor became ‘Father of History’!

Yet, colonial Assyriologists and Egyptologists deciphered and published in modern translations thousands of historical texts, Great Chronicles and Annals of extremely sophisticated background that antedate the Carian impostor Herodotus by more than 2000 years, either written in Egyptian Hieroglyphics or engraved in Sumerian, Assyrian-Babylonian Cuneiform. We should not forget that the Ancient Elamites, the Hurrians, the Hatti, the Hittites and the Cannanites of Ugarit had also their own great historical texts, antedating Herodotus by centuries and/or millennia; all this is well known to the present, disreputable, academic class of postcolonial European academia who keep shamelessly diffusing the same paranoid and racist bogus-historical forgery.

Why they selected the Carian impostor Herodotus as ‘Father of their History’? Simply, because they wished to create an arbitrary, false, absolutely Manichaean, division of the World into East and West, whereby the Lights would belong to the latter (i.e. themselves) and the Darkness would emanate from the East.

How resolutely the ancient Macedonians rejected the pernicious followers of the Herodotus blasphemy, we attest when we read all the inscriptions engraved at Alexander’s request: “Alexander and the Greeks, except the Lacedaemonians”, the latter being an ordinary appellation of the Dorian Spartans.

The racist academia of Europe seem to insolently forget that, if Athens were possibly a model, Alexander would not opt for Babylon as his Capital.

Persisting on the racist fabrication, bogus-historians of the European universities camouflage the historical reality that Pharaoh Ptolemy II of Macedonian descent had as supreme political model and considered as ideal statesman Amenhotep son of Hapou, a high administrator of the times of Amenhotep III, who lived more than 1100 years before the times of Ptolemy II.

Cleisthenes and Alkiviades either could not be held as ideal statesmen or, as Greek, they meant nothing to a Macedonian like Ptolemy II.


Modern Balkans

All these Western fabrications were not primarily anti-Ottoman, although the target was also the destruction of the surviving under the Sultan Oriental Roman State that the uncivilized Franks were hating for more than 1000 years. They were expressions of primordial and inhuman hatred addressed against all the peoples of the Balkans and Anatolia, whose potentialities in terms of comprehension, intuition, speculation, humanity and fruitfulness are higher than those of the colonial powers. Only multi-divided and turned one against another, these peoples would leave the colonial expansionists pursue their plans without any hindrance.

Rich conceptual thinkers and intellectuals like Rega Velestinli (how Greek name and surname!) were envisaging a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious, democratic Imperium to supplant the Sultan’s power to the benefit of all the peoples of the Eastern Roman Empire. Of course, he has been completely misinterpreted by the modern Greek state for nationalistic abuse and for truth masking. But his vision for one state replacing the Ottoman empire is quite telling:

There was no need for a Greek state, a Macedonian state, a Bulgarian state, an Albanian state followed by all the rest that have been the result of undeserved bloodshed and masochistic massacre. As Rega Velestinli would expect, the false fabrication of modern ‘nations’ was so artificial an event that implied not only inhuman practices and murders that reach the level of genocide but also complete denial of the ‘other’s’ real physical existence.

One must not be confused by academic and state disinformation that run top for almost two centuries; the denial did not take the form of rejection of the existence of millions of people. It took the form of the rejection of the existence of these people under the identity they were expressing in their daily lives; by saying identity we refer to language, behavioural system and traditions, cultural life, and religious beliefs. When the administration of a country calls the language of another people ‘idiom’, there we have severe discriminatory and racist practices that of course match with, and are strengthened by, the racist model of forged history that foreigners diffused among the leading educators and administrators of the country in question.

The form of colonial cultural and educational interference was double: either Western Europeans traveled and diffused the historical forgery among the people of the regions they wished to detach from the Ottoman Empire (in order to form the bogus states that suited their colonial imperial needs) or indigenous people started – oddly and iniquitously for what had been historical practice for thousands of years – being selected by consuls, ambassadors and traveling political agents in order to be offered stipendiums to supposedly study abroad! Like this, a certain Adamantios Korais from Izmir (at the western coast of today’s Turkey), the son of nobody to characterize him properly, moved to Montpellier to ‘study’, and fabricate, under due guidance, the educative system of a country that did not exist, but his financiers and educators had already machinated how to fabricate. Like this, Balkan states were to come to existence for the ‘good’ perspective of many wars and abundant arms sales.

The idiotic pupils of the colonial gangsters did not imagine – even not for a second – that the concept of nations did not exist at the times of the Ottoman and the Eastern Roman Empire, and that at those days Arabic for Muslims, and Greek, Syriac Aramaic, Coptic and Armenian for Christians were ‘holy’ languages – support of their respective Scriptures. This historical reality that was very well known in the past was mendaciously and viciously ‘forgotten’ at the times of the Balkan bogus nation-building. Yet, it was a simple historical phenomenon that had happened many times and under various circumstances throughout History; Slavs and Albanians accepting Christianity were gradually learning Greek, Aramaeans accepting Islam were gradually learning Arabic, and Babylonians and Phoenicians accepting Christianity were gradually learning Aramaic Syriac. This would not entail that they would become Greeks, Arabs and Aramaeans. Consequently, no ‘national’ culture could be possibly imposed on them.

To impose the false and alien fabrication of colonially forged ‘History’, the Greek state imposed a bogus-historical dogma for the needs of which the Macedonians were Greeks! It is as simple as that! If Zimbabweans lived at the place of Macedonians, the Zimbabweans would certainly ‘be’ Greek! We heard the nationalistic hysteria of those who were screaming in 1990 – 91 ‘Macedonia is Greece’. Quite unfortunately for them, Demosthenes is a far more authoritative source than their chauvinistic fever; we will always opt for Demosthenes when it comes to an evaluation of who is Greek and who is not. And Macedonians of all times were never Greek.

From Demosthenes to the Greek Communists

Yet, some light of truth was shed in Modern Greece; at a moment of frontal opposition to the Greek nationalistic establishment, Greek Communist admitted realities the dimensions of which come down to our days. This is what fresh research brings as groundbreaking conclusions.

Published by Ireneusz Adam Œlupkov, in London and Szczecin (2006), the research concerns “The Communist Party of Greece and the Macedonian National Problem 1918 – 1940”. It is a well written, objective and pertinent study of the policies pursued by the Greek Communist Party during the critical period between the two world wars.

Perfectly articulated, the book contains an introduction, and five chapters on

-The Problem of Nationalities in Europe and the Policy of the Comintern,

-The Communist Party of Greece and the Policy of "Neither Statehood nor Nationhood" (1918-24),

-The Communist Party of Greece and its Policy of "Statehood without Nationhood" (1924-31),

-The Communist Party of Greece and its Policy of "Nationhood without Statehood" (1935-40), and

-The Real Reasons for the Greek Communist Party's Change of Policy towards the Slogan of a "United and Independent Macedonia".

After the Conclusion, the author offers a valuable section including bibliography, appendices and maps; as key documents - thus far unpublished and unfocused - are presented in English translation by the multilingual author, one should suggest this book to EU decision makers a key to the formation of a rightful decision. Widely known, this book is also expected to cause an earthquake to the ailing but surviving Greek Communist Party that has been characterized by a nationalistic centrifugal deviation these last years.



http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=22926







Изменето од naemnik - 19.Октомври.2007 во 20:37
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EVE NESHO ZA MODERNITE GRCI, SAMO KRITIKA



The Apology of an Anti-Hellene
Odyssey/Introduction


If Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal have a Greek analog, it is Nikos Dimou. One of his generation's most fertile minds, a legendary advertising man and a prolific writer, Dimou is best known as the author of The Misfortune of Being Greek-the book that earned him the label of an "anti-Hellene." Nearly a quarter century after it was first published, Dimou comes clean.

Nikos Dimou is a master of provoking passions. It is an art that he learned, perhaps, as one of the pioneers of advertising in Greece (his bloodied map of Cyprus, overlaid with the slogan "I Do Not Forget," is the primal symbol of the island's occupation). He honed it as a columnist for the newspapers To Vima and Kathimerini in the 1980s and 1990s-famously being forced to leave both ? the latter in 1996 after its publisher accused him of subverting church and military.

In the meantime, beyond the crucible of the country's political debates, Dimou indulged a series of less controversial passions: In over 40 publications, ranging from poetry to photography, he revealed his love of everything from cars to cats, philosophy to Greek light. While the country's political press has waxed and waned in its enthusiasm for Dimou, his columns have been a popular constant for over a decade in specialty publications like 4 Troxoi and RAM (Greece's leading car and computer magazines, respectively).

Recently, Dimou decided to revisit the text for which he is most famous-The Misfortune of Being Greek. First published in 1975, The Misfortune is a series of 193 mostly brief, often cutting aperηus about Greece and Greeks (see sidebar). In the very last lines of the postscript, Dimou writes: "I have tried, simply, to articulate my observations in such a way so that serious people will find them to be serious, while less serious ones will find them less serious. I am now tortured by the possibility that the exact opposite will occur."

Perhaps it did. What is certain is that although the book became a best seller and an evergreen one (over 100.000 copies sold) as time passed Dimou came to be known as a gadfly at best and a traitor at worst. Reading through The Misfortune today, it is difficult to understand why: While he is at times viciously blunt, and while many of his observations are clearly debatable, Dimou always exudes a love for Greece in his text-a love more pure, many readers have observed, than that of the most ardent (self-proclaimed) patriots. The negative reactions to The Misfortune seem to betray as much about the critics as they do about the author.

The essay that follows is Nikos Dimou's response to his critics.

The Apology of an Anti-Hellene

This text, with the Greek title "Apologia Enos Anthellina", is the introductory essay of the eponymous collection (1997, Opera Publishers) as translated by the staff of Odyssey magazine. A few paragraphs have been omitted.


Hemlock is no longer prescribed by the city of Athens-there are, however, other poisons. As the century comes to a close, the accusations weigh heavily on my mind, and I feel the need to unburden myself. Especially since most of the attacks leveled against me concern things I have never said. I am charged with harboring ideas, attitudes, and theories in which I have never believed. And so, once more, I will attempt to clarify what I do in fact believe, so that those who wish to judge me will be able to base their case on facts.

Let me say up front that I feel no guilt, and that I use the term "Apology" ironically-with Socratic irony, if you will. And I deliberately omit placing quotation marks around the word anti-Hellene. They are unnecessary. I consider the term an honorable title, won by many worthy Greeks. As Nietzsche once wrote (I don't remember where and haven't been able to find it again), it was the anti-Germans who proved to be the best Germans.

To whom do we refer as an anti-Hellene? As a rule, to Greeks or foreigners who write (or say) unpleasant things about Greeks, who criticize us, or express opinions we don't like.

Regarding the Greeks who are placed in this category: Is it really so difficult to understand that such a critic does his country a greater service than the most enthusiastic cheerleader?

The foreign anti-Hellene is another story. He may be a journalist who reports or editorializes, or an academic who propounds a theory. He is called an anti-Hellene from the moment we disagree with his opinions, regardless of how appropriate or how accurate. Fallmereyer would be considered an anti-Hellene, even if his theory of the descent of Greeks from Slavs were proved 100 percent correct. (Indeed, then he would be considered even more culpable).

In truth, this categorization of people into Philhellenes and anti-Hellenes is, at best, naive. Journalists, politicians, and (especially) academics, historians, etc., rarely think or act on the basis of emotion. (I very much doubt that Fallmereyer hated Greeks). Nor are they such racists as to be prejudiced against entire peoples. The ludicrousness of the label becomes even more obvious when one of those supposedly confirmed anti-Hellenes (Henry Kissinger, for example), comes out pro-Greece on the Macedonian issue, whereupon he is immediately credited with a philhellenic outlook.

Dimou the Anti-Hellene

In 1975 I published The Misfortune of Being Greek and immediately became 1. well-known, 2. of questionable intellectual gravitas (because the book became a runaway best-seller), and 3. the bearer of the two titles I have carried since, as does a camel her humps: "the author of The Misfortune" (so what if I've written 40 other books), and "Dimou the anti-Hellene".

It didn't happen right away. The first reactions to the book were positive. Greeks, still dazed from the dictatorship, initially embraced a text laden with bitter truths. But soon this introspective phase passed, foreigners were blamed for everything ("puppet" dictatorship), and The Misfortune became bothersome. Even more bothersome was a seven-page interview I gave in 1977 to the German magazine Der Spiegel. This interview, which once again stated bitter truths, was deplored and distorted by the Greek press, while the original text was never published in Greece. I actually managed to land in the line of fire of the Left and the Right, being christened an anti-Hellene by both.

But my reputation wasn't really sealed until the period 1991-1996, during which I rebelled against the eruption of Greek nationalism. The daily newspaper Kathimerini promptly expelled me from its ranks. Meanwhile, The Misfortune was added to the Index of Anti-Hellenic Publications.

Yet now as then, I maintain that this document was born out of a love (possibly an excessive one) of Greece. If anyone reading it failed to perceive how much I feel for this country, then surely he must be biased. Satire is always born of pain-the satirist is a sensitive person who transmutes his disbelief and rage into bitter sarcasm. Nevertheless, there are many who maintain that I do not love my country, that I would rather live elsewhere, (e.g. Western Europe), and that this is the cause of my discontent.

It is true that I would rather live elsewhere. But I would prefer that other place to be here. That's what I've fought for-to spread and to cultivate the positive elements of Western (i.e. Greek) civilization in our country. For 20 years, in addition to my books, I have made use of all forms of media in order to publicize my views. I got involved with newspapers, television, and magazines -all of which, in the eyes of the intellectuals, called my credibility into even greater question. And it was all pretty much in vain. In the past few years, waves of nationalism, religious fundamentalism, racism, anti-westernism, and isolationism have overcome our country. As I read the various studies analyzing the opinions, the outlooks, and the attitudes of Greeks, I think how pointless all my efforts have been. The brainwashing by the Helleno-centrists is insidious and unremitting. In this land, the words "Europeanist" and even "modernizer" have come to sound like insults, or, at least, like ironies.

Maybe my leaving would have been, on a personal level, the simplest and most effective solution. I wasn't forced to stay. I had managed (after much effort), to acquire the financial means to live abroad. As for the other requirements (foreign languages, familiarity with foreign lifestyles), I was already prepared. And I do admit that there were moments when I seriously considered it. It saddens me when I compare my experience to that of western European friends and classmates, who have never had to confront the cannibalistic and small-minded behavior that prevails in our spiritually cramped marketplace.

I stayed, though, and fought. Because what mattered to me wasn't just to live in a decent place-but to improve the one I lived in. I believe that this country has a lot to gain from proper modernization and a lot to learn from the West. Because the West is not something foreign-it is a continuation of our culture. What Greece should aim for is a synthesis of the positive aspects of our neo-Hellenic identity and heritage with the positive qualities of the West. (At the moment, we do exactly the opposite: combine the least flattering elements of our national character with the worst the West has to offer).

I won't discuss here my love for Greece-for the past 40 years I've shown it through my writing, and illustrated it with my photographs.... But for me love doesn't mean uncritical praise, blind adherence to myths and mirages, jingoism and demagoguery. As the old Greek saying goes, He who loves, troubles. Real love is revealed by how much we grumble and rage at all that's wrong and crooked in our land.

Greece gets to me so much that I've devoted seven books and countless other writings to her. In Diary of a Heat Wave, I wrote: "This country is killing me. You know how we say 'flood victim,' or 'earthquake victim'-well, I'm a Greece victim. Greece-with all her beauty and all her absurdity-has run me over like a steam engine."

The Pitfalls of Fanaticism

My image of my country isn't based on an idea, but on a feeling, an affection for the familiar. I consider my homeland neither better nor more important than any other land; I merely love it-the way I love my neighborhood, because it's my corner of the world. But, just as I would never dream of turning my neighborhood into an ideology and killing for it, I don't see any reason to do the same in the name of the nation, and to sacrifice people for a false idol.

I love Greece the way someone loves his house and the people close to him. But that doesn't mean I'm blind to her faults, just as I don't consider my own house and my own relatives better than other people's. Even as a child I used to wonder at fanatics-whatever their cause. And I still find it hard to understand how someone can become a sworn supporter or a blind follower. It always surprised me when I saw grown-ups argue over political parties or soccer teams, and stop speaking to friends because they backed the "wrong" group.

Personally, I never felt such a passionate need to belong. Perhaps as a result of the fanaticism I witnessed as a child (I was nine years old at the time of the "Dekemvriana"-the December 1944 clashes between rightists and leftists), I developed the opposite passion: that of fanatic disengagement. As a consequence of this, I've now become, at the age of 60, completely marginalized. (In Greece, unless a political party, clique, media group, religious or soccer organization backs you, you might as well not exist).

Still, in spite of all this, I'm not in the least inclined to alter my opinions. I'm merely tired of arguing-especially with people who haven't the slightest interest in what anyone else has to say. In Greece, the minute you express a view you get stuck with a label (e.g. supporter of the West), and, subsequently, anything you say is considered more or less predictable. The supporters of your group will automatically agree with you, while those on the opposite side will disagree, without even knowing what you said. A Panathinaikos fan will never discuss the views of an Olympiakos supporter. As a result, there's never any real dialogue. What with all the slogans, the labels, and the stereotypes, the intellectual scene is coming to seem more and more like a soccer stadium.

Know Thyself

Greeks' contemporary self-image is built upon a series of myths. The myth of continuity. The myth of the racial and cultural superiority of our ancestors (and, thanks to continuity, our own). The myth of being special. The myth of racial and religious purity. The myth of the genius of the Greek race.

The existence of these myths provokes certain predictable reactions. Thus, my typical compatriot, while proud to be Greek (95 percent, according to polls) will abuse and censure his countrymen at the slightest provocation. And this, naturally, because they fail to live up to the expectations and the demands created by the myths.

This explains why we're simultaneously the greatest eulogizers and the worst critics of ourselves. Depending on our point of view (and on the moment), we either denigrate Greeks or sing their praises. (In the former case we usually refer to them as "Romious"). Naturally, both attitudes are wrong. Instead of applauding or cursing, it would be better to stop, and think. Calmly, and rationally. (But I forget myself. Rationality is also a Western, imported Evil for our Helleno-centric intelligentsia. So much for Aristotle!)

The "Evil" West

Manichaism (i.e. the contrast between black and white) is one of the ills that corrupts us. There is no such thing as pure evil or pure good, and what's called for isn't antithesis, setting one against the other, but synthesis. Yet we've become so used to this game of tug-of-war, that when we don't have enemies, we invent them. Thus, for example, we have the "evil" West, or our "bad" neighbors.

It's amazing how much we oversimplify and distort certain things, in order to transform them into enemies. We have a distorted image of Europe. But Europe contains everything, including us. It contains rationalists as well as anti-rationalists, nationalists, cosmopolitans, and romantics. There is no tendency in Greek thought today that doesn't have its European counterpart-maybe even its progenitor. The West today includes the East, which has had such a profound influence on the art and thought of this century. It encompasses the whole range of schools of thought, from rationalism to non-rationalism, from Descartes to Derrida. Even Dostoyevsky-the anti-Westerner, the slavophile-is a fundamental part of the Western tradition.

Actually, its a mistake to speak of Western culture. What the West represents now is a world culture, one that has integrated all the cultures that came before it. It's the first culture in history that has kept and still cultivates all tendencies and traditions. Older cultures, on the other hand, always began by uprooting those that came before them, or those that were different (as the Christians, for example, destroyed the monuments and writings of the ancients).

Of course, as soon as we hear talk of a world culture, we're gripped by the anxiety of integration, of losing our identity. It's an understandable reaction for a small nation. But there really isn't anything to fear. Centuries of coexistence within the same national bounds didn't turn the Sicilians into Milanese, the Bavarians into Prussians, the Welsh into English, the Proven?ales into Normans. So why will our culture be swamped? The spread of Coca-Cola and blue jeans doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with the spread of cultural values. (Most anti-Americans I know wear jeans). Concurrent with the internationalization of culture is the opposite tendency, an obsession with difference, which, as witnessed in the former Yugoslavia, can be defended with far too much zeal. At no other time in history has humanity been so sensitive to the rights of minorities-and at no other time have local traditions been so respected and nurtured. The new international culture can ensure both unity and difference.

I don't know how bad the West is for us. I do know that we owe it a lot. From our independence (no one ever mentions Navarino in 1827, when Western navies helped salvage our battle for independence) to our love of ourselves.

If any Western import has harmed Greece, it's been neither rationalism, nor the political system, nor technology. It's been the idea of the continuity of Hellenic civilization.

Oddly, this idea, which today is waved about like a banner by anti-Westerners, is an entirely Western notion. Foreign "Philhellenes" uncovered our ancient monuments, and it was they who taught us to believe that we were the immediate successors to the ancients, responsible for the continuation of their traditions. The Romioi of the 18th century didn't feel Greek-much less of the ancient variety. They were a Balkan nation, originating from the admixture of many races and cultural traditions, with their own attitudes and ways of thinking. Out of the blue, the Western "Philhellenes" (and their mimics, our own "scholars") stuck a helmet on their head, dubbed them keepers of the ancient flame, and injected them with a passion for purity.

Pure race, ergo, pure language. How this nation has suffered in the name of purity! It was a first in the history of linguistics: the creation of an artificial language, a retro-dialect. All impurities were rooted out, place names were changed, history was distorted-for the sake of proving...what? That Greece was not a Balkan nation like the others, but a racially pure aristocracy, not only of the region but of the whole world. Like certain pseudo-bluebloods who fake their family trees to prove their superiority.

But you don't become worthy on the strength of your lineage, but on the basis of your achievements. The son of a Nobel prizewinner has no birthright to a Nobel prize. The ancient Greeks belong to the whole world, especially to those who study them. An English classicist at Oxford is nearer to the ancients than an ignorant Greek.

Yet even today our intellectuals call the Greeks "the aristocracy of nations." Even today many (most) Greeks believe in their hearts that we are a chosen people. This is why we're always complaining about the way we're treated. Like spoiled children, we demand of everyone their unconditional support-even when we're wrong. And we insist on believing that we're always being cheated, ignoring the fact that we happen to be the only country in the region to have doubled its size in the last 150 years. We've woven endless conspiracy theories so as to absolve ourselves of responsibility, and to cast the blame on others instead. Our belief in our superiority shows up clearly in our racist attitudes. What Greek doesn't consider himself better than the Turk, the Albanian, or the "Gypsy-Skopjan"? Go ask an Greek educated audience about Turkish civilization-they're certain to chuckle.

Well, this Greek, this Greek who asks the world "Do you know who I am?", who shouts at demonstrations, who denies the Other his basic human rights, who has conducted pogroms against his Jewish (in the past) and Muslim (today) compatriots, who ends up shooting (by mistake) the Albanian and the gypsy; this Greek, I don't like. And on this point I remain, incurably, an anti-Hellene.

History as a Western

Not a day goes by without the papers ranting about some anti-Hellenic threat. The Turk coughed, the American scratched himself-woe to us! Since my childhood, Greece's history has seemed like a (cheap) Western movie, one in which the Greeks were, always and unequivocally, the Good Guys. The Bad Guys were always changing. There was "the threat from the North," then from the East, then it was the North again, and back to the East. When I was a child, the word "Bulgarian" was a curse, more so than "Turk." It was forbidden for Greeks in northern Greece to design themselves as "Macedonian." "Albanian" then had a neutral tone; today it's become a threat.

Sooner or later we need to free ourselves from this Balkan mindset. That in which, in the words of the writer Fred Reed, "one man's national martyr is another's war criminal, where one country's founding myth is another's tale of woe and usurpation." Here, the ideological exploitation of history has become state-of-the-art. I was amazed to realize, on reading the history books of West European nations, that there are histories that aren't based on competition and enmity, that don't indulge in nationalism and hate. Where neighbors are even regarded with sympathy.

But do you dare compare Greeks with other nations? Well, yes, I do, and we would do well to forget our uniqueness in misfortune as well. History isn't a comforting mother who you can run to when things go badly-who will pet you and show you special favor. All the nations on earth have been through bad times-there's no sense in competing to see who can feel the most sorry for themselves. It's time we grew up!

And above all we have to stop living history as Western. Every morning the papers scream (like the little kid in the movies), "Look out! He's right behind you!" Every day the same fear: What are the Bad Guys up to? (As if they do nothing else from morning till night but conspire against us.) When will we realize that in history, as in life, people can't be divided up into the purely good and the purely bad. That the greatness of nations isn't measured in myths or fears, but primarily by their capacity to overcome problems of the present (and of the past, when it becomes present). Consider what it took for the French and the Germans to reconcile their differences-differences reinforced by centuries of bloody warfare. Each time I read about the European Community's French-German axis, I remember my first French teacher, and how she used to curse the "Boches" with rabid fury.

The One & Only "National" Issue

I don't consider the Aegean or the Macedonian issues "national issues." Nor even the economy and public administration problems.

For me, the one and only national issue is the one posited by poet Dionysios Solomos: The nation must equate the national with the true. If this isn't done (and it can't be achieved from one day to the next-it requires years of effort, mainly in education) then we won't be able to stand up in today's world. We'll always be in a limbo between whining and belligerence. We'll spend billions-in blood and sweat-on useless armaments. We'll continually be quarreling with our neighbors, and with the whole world. We'll see paranoid schemes and conspiracies everywhere. Like a sick, maladjusted person, we'll spend our lives wavering between hysteria and depression.

Who will dare to teach Greeks the truth about their history? (Including, for example, the aforementioned pogroms...). About the history, and culture, of their neighbors? Who will dare to teach them the truth about certain "national issues" (like the FIR Athinon, our irrational airspace)? When will Greeks succeed in seeing themselves as they really are: a nation like all the others, with abilities and weaknesses, with talent (often more than this land can hold), and insecurities, capable of both generosity and meanspiritedness.

Beyond the overhaul of the economy, I preach the revamping of our attitudes. Am I really an anti-Hellene? Or do I love Greece? The future will decide.


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And the word of an Ancient one:

Цитирај
The great rhetorician, Isocrates (436-338 B.C.), gave the following definition of a Hellene in his Panagyricus:
Athens has so far outrun the rest of mankind in thought and speech that her disciples are the masters of the rest, and it is due to her that the word "Greek" is not so much a term of birth as it is of mentality, and is applied to a common culture rather than a common descent.


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Grcite deneska se dichat deka u Stario Zavet zboro YAVAN ZNACHE GRK,

how ever:

The modern meaning of the word Yavan> Greek was not always used only for the Greeks. In the Old Testament we find this word with the following meaning:





Daniel 8:20-21

Daniel 8:20-21

20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

20. Et aries quem vidisti habentem duo cornua, reges sunt Medorum et Persarum.

21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

21. Et hircus caprae, qui natus erit ex hirco, rex Graecae, et cornu magnum quod erat inter oculos, ejus, est rex primus.

By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricmn. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.

Taken from Commentary on Daniel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISTO I ZA NOVIO ZAVET GTAT MUVI AMA:

In the new Testament, the word Hellene did not designate the Greeks but also all other non Greek people:

In the scriptures of the New Testament Hellenes is used as a term representative of all the non-Jewish peoples (cf. Galatians 3:2.)


Taken from Names of the Hellens
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NA VELINE:

with the words of Phillip V of Macedon, as recorded by Polybius;

What is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and how do you define Greece? Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks!” (18, 5)

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Naemnik mnogu ubavi argumenti koristis, na pravo mesto vo pravo vreme. намигнување

Jas veke nekolku od tvoite postovi iskoristiv po drugite svetski forumi za naseto prasanje!!! голема%20насмевка

A ako sakas mozes i ti da se pridruzis tamu, ponekogas koga mozes!!  големо%20гушкање  големо%20гушкање  големо%20гушкање


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Originally posted by borec borec напиша:

Naemnik mnogu ubavi argumenti koristis, na pravo mesto vo pravo vreme.


bidi sloboden da gi koristesh....... jas nolgu vreme za po forumi i nemam.... oshe na dva drugi od vreme na vreme uchestvuvam, i toa e.......

tuka malku sport teram so bugarchinjava, interesni mi se da gi tepame....
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GEECE postoj od 1830 godina, vo segasnite granici od 1913 godina.....
po moja teorija e grcija nisto drugo kako tamponzona, posto "jakite" sili se plasile slavite da ne bidat na dvete strani na svetskite morinja, zatoa makedonija padna pod grcka vlast koja bese i podrzana od silite, a "slavite" samo dobile pristap koj se lesni za kontrola....jadransko i crno more......

drug fakt e, deka nema dokaz filipova i aleksanderova imperija da se vikala grcija (kako sto velat nasite sosedi) a uste pomalce do 1830 godina imalo drzava koja gi obedinuvase site helenski pleminja i grad-drzavi...

isto taka po moe generalot metaxas gi ima unisteni dokazite za makedonskata istorija so vleguvanjeto vo bibliotekata vo atina, kade imat zapaleno dela od plutarh i aristotel (koj isto taka ne gi smetam za grci)


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Благодаря, на всички ви за горните коментари. Ще ми трябва малко време за да ги прочета преди да мога да ги коментирам.

Originally posted by LouWeed LouWeed напиша:

GEECE postoj od 1830 godina, vo segasnite granici od 1913 godina.....
po moja teorija e grcija nisto drugo kako tamponzona, posto "jakite" sili se plasile slavite da ne bidat na dvete strani na svetskite morinja, zatoa makedonija padna pod grcka vlast koja bese i podrzana od silite, a "slavite" samo dobile pristap koj se lesni za kontrola....jadransko i crno more......

drug fakt e, deka nema dokaz filipova i aleksanderova imperija da se vikala grcija (kako sto velat nasite sosedi) a uste pomalce do 1830 godina imalo drzava koja gi obedinuvase site helenski pleminja i grad-drzavi...

isto taka po moe generalot metaxas gi ima unisteni dokazite za makedonskata istorija so vleguvanjeto vo bibliotekata vo atina, kade imat zapaleno dela od plutarh i aristotel (koj isto taka ne gi smetam za grci)


Лоу,
интересни неща пишеш. Абсолютно съм съгласен, че Филип и Александър не са наричали империята си Гръцка. Но факт е, че тази империя разпространява гръцкия език и култура.

Моля те дай малко линкове за Метаксас. Не бих се учудил да е истина, макар че едва ли  може даа се докаже.

Поздрав,
Венелин
Всичко изпитвайте,
дръжте доброто!
(1 Сол. 5:21)
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jasno e toa, no treba i da razmisles drugacie......ZASTO grckiot jazik???isto moze i da kazam na vremeto RIM zasto LATINSKIOT jazik, isto moze i da se prasuvam kako mozeze nero da stane takov philhellene i pocna grckiot da go vovdeuva vo rimskata imperija, isto taka moze i da se prasuvam zasto grcki i se zboruvase vo rimskata oblast MAKEDONIJA?zasto vo BYZANZ se zboruvase grcki?zasto vo DEUTSCHES ROEMISCHES REICH se zboruvale isto latinski?

isto taka mozam i sega da se prasuvam zasto germanskiot izceznuva i se i se povekje anglicismi se vmetnuvat???


znaci sto sakam da kazam, fakt e deka NE samo grcite zboruvale grcki!(persici!!)
Znaci kako sega sto e angliskiot vo denesno vreme da kazam "diplomatski" jazik bilo i na vremeto grckiot, a drug fakt e i geografiskata blizina, a za drug fakt ic da ne zboruvam.......kolku grci imase vo taa golemata makedonska armija..........
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Originally posted by venstar venstar напиша:

Но факт е, че тази империя разпространява гръцкия език и култура.


Venelin, go minavme toa veke:

Quintus Rufus:

“One charge made against me is that I disdain to communicate in my native language, that I have no respect for Macedonian customs. That native language of ours has long been rendered obsolete through our dealings with other nations, and conquerors and conquered alike must learn a foreign tongue.”


SA UCHILE "HELENSKI" LINGUA FEANCA OF THE TIME!  CAUSE:

The great rhetorician, Isocrates (436-338 B.C.), gave the following definition of a Hellene in his Panagyricus:
Athens has so far outrun the rest of mankind in thought and speech that her disciples are the masters of the rest, and it is due to her that the word "Greek" is not so much a term of birth as it is of mentality, and is applied to a common culture rather than a common descent.





Изменето од naemnik - 26.Октомври.2007 во 11:49
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recorded by Plutarch;
Quote:
Then Alexander turned to Xenodochus of Cardia and Artemis of Colophon and asked them, “When you see the Greeks walking about among the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods among so many wild beasts?”……others crowded around him and begged him to be quiet. But Alexander leaped to his feet and shouted out in the Macedonian tongue for his bodyguard to turn out, a signal that this was an extreme emergency..(Alx, 51)
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