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MAGNAT.
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Испратена: 02.Октомври.2007 во 20:12 |
borec напиша:
MAGNAT. напиша:
Таа анатма ја искажува преку зборовите: ,, Овој народ ќе добие вечна клетва, за за омраза и завист, со вечна македонска голгота, страдање и бездржавност ,, .
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NE TREBA DA DOZVOLIME OVA VOOPSTO DA GO STAVAME NA DNEVEN RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* Kako prvo moze da NE E VISTINA!
* Kako vtoro, toa bilo nekogas pred 3000 god. koga nasite mislele deka treba da i se "predademe na sudbinata"
* Treba da ucime od predhodnite greski i mnogu polesno da "moove on" sto vikaat Englezite!
* Kakvi MAKEDONCI BI BILE AKO EDNOSTAVNO GO PRIFATIME KAKO TAKA - KLETVA!
* I NAJVAZNO - TREBA I NIE DA MAVNEME PO NEKOJA KLETVA NA SITE ONIE STO NI SE NEPRIJATELI, PA DA JA OSETAT MAKED0NSKATA KLETVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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borec, Vo potpolnost se soglasuvam deka treba da mavneme i nie po nekoja kletva kon neprijatelite? Pishuvanjeto kje bide ushte nekoe vreme od prichina shto slrduva promocija na kniga na ovaa tema. Do togash da izdrzime i da bideme edinstveni. Molam samo pishuvajte na ovoj post kada MAGNAT ima tocka. Blagodaram.
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,, KRIG BLIC ,,
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OLUJA
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Испратена: 03.Октомври.2007 во 14:05 |
Да ја бараш Вистината, не значи да го најдеш она што го очекуваш!
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,,AB OVO,,
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borec
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Испратена: 03.Октомври.2007 во 16:45 |
Posts tagged with "anc MK language"
Wednesday, 26. July 2006, 21:03:02
anc MK language
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LUPUS ET
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Испратена: 03.Октомври.2007 во 18:22 |
Добро, нека е и така.
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,,ODLUCHIV: CRIG BLIC,,
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borec
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Испратена: 04.Октомври.2007 во 06:36 |
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MAGNAT.
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Испратена: 04.Октомври.2007 во 23:42 |
borec напиша:
ПОДУНАВЈЕТО И БАЛКАНОТ - СЛОВЕНСКА ПРАПОСТОЈБИНА
Рускиот
истражувач Генадиј С. Грињевич во своето дело „Прасловенската писменост
и резултатите на одгатнувањата„ открива непознати страници на
словенската писменост и словенската историја која, според него, имала
водечко место во мугрите на цивилизацијата. Тој утврдил дека
словенското слоговно писмо е најстаро до сега за науката познато писмо
на светот и дека и припаѓало на Винчанската култура, 5 илјади години
пред Христос. Грињевич смета дека на словенската култура и припаѓаат и
Критските натписи од 20 до 12 век пред новата ера, етрурските натписи
на Апенинскиот полуостров од 8 до 2 век пред Христос и словенските руни
од 4 век п.н.е, до 10 век на новата ера.
Доколку продолжат
археолошките истражувања на локалитетот Говрлево, Скопско, можно е да
бидат пронајдени докази со кои староста на најстарото словенско и
светско писмо ќе биде подолга за уште цело едно илјадалетие.
Светски
познатиот научник - јазичар Олга Николаевич Трубакова во делото
„Етногенезата и културата на Старите Словени: лингвистички истражувања“
докажува дека Подунавјето и Балканот се прапостојбина на Словените кои
од тие простори низ многу илјадалетија се раселувале во други подрачја
на западот, северот и на истокот на Европа.
Последниве дваесетина
години беа објавени трудови на некои историчари од просторите на
поранешна Југославија во кои се истакнува дека претставувањето на
словенската историја на Балканот не одговара на фактите. Еден од нив е
и истакнатиот хрватски историчар Иван Мужиќ. По долги истражувања и
проучувања Мужиќ заклучува дека не постојат материјални докази кои би
ги поткрепиле тврдењата на некои историчари за наводното постоење на
„Големата преселба на народите во Европа„ и наводното доселување на
Словените на Балканот од 5 до 7 век од „зад Карпатите“. Објавени се
и неколку трудови на професорот Реља Новаковиќ, стручњак за словенска
праисторија и Стар век од САД, меѓу кои „Атлас за историјата на
Словените до 12 век„, „Карпатски и ликиски Срби“ и „Непознатиот
Црњански„, печатени во Институтот за србистика во САД на англиски и на
српски јазик.
Во трудот „Непознатиот Црњански“ Новаковиќ бележи дека
книжевниот великан Милош Црњански за време на долгите години поминати
во Лондон во средината на 20 век утврдил дека на британските и ирски
острови има голем број српски и други словенски топоними од Балканот,
т.е. очигледни факти за постоење на Словените таму каде што науката до
скоро „не можела“ или не сакала да ги види. По враќањето во Југославија
1964 година Црњански и ги претставил своите откритија на
југословенската научна јавност која, меѓутоа, со чудење констатира
Новаковиќ, не пројавила интерес за ова за сите словенски народи
исклучително значајно откритие, кое набргу било заборавено.
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Nikade ne se spomenuvaat slovenite i nivnata prapostojbina. temata e: ,,MAKEDONCITE NAJSTARI NA BALKANOT I POSHIROKO,, a vo podnaslov e genezata za antichkite korenja na makedoncite. Molam, pridrzjuvajse do temata. Prochitaj ja od pochetok za mnogu neshta da ti bidat pojasni.
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,, KRIG BLIC ,,
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borec
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 08:41 |
MAGNAT. напиша:
Nikade ne se spomenuvaat slovenite i nivnata prapostojbina. temata e: ,,MAKEDONCITE NAJSTARI NA BALKANOT I POSHIROKO,, a vo podnaslov e genezata za antichkite korenja na makedoncite. Molam, pridrzjuvajse do temata. Prochitaj ja od pochetok za mnogu neshta da ti bidat pojasni.
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Toj text bese ispraten so namera da se SUZBIE dolgogodisnata prikazna za doaganjeto na "Slovenite" vo 6ti vek A ISTO TAKA I "GRCKOTO' NEGIRANJE NA MAKEDONCITE DA IMAAT BILO KAKVA VRSKA SO TOA PISMO JAZIK I KULTURA. Megutoa izgleda deka ne sum bas ubavo go progital - sega koga go proveriv OSETIV DEKA OVOJ TEXT IMA DRUGA NASOKA OD ONOJ STO JAS MISLEV! GO IZBRISAV - A NE KE BIDE LOSO I TI DA GO IZBRISES VO TVOJOT POST!!!!!!
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naemnik
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 10:30 |
Webster Dictionary 1967-69
GROUP: MACEDONIC
ANCIENT: MACEDONIAN
MEDEVIAL: MACEDONIAN
MODERN:
SOUT: BULGARIAN, SERB-CROATIAN, SLOVENIAN, MACEDONIAN
WEST: CZECH, SLOVAK, POLISH, WENDISH etc.
EAST: RUSSIAN, UKRAINIAN, BELORUSSIAN
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borec
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 11:55 |
naemnik напиша:
Webster Dictionary 1967-69
GROUP: MACEDONIC
ANCIENT: MACEDONIAN
MEDEVIAL: MACEDONIAN
MODERN:
SOUT: BULGARIAN, SERB-CROATIAN, SLOVENIAN, MACEDONIAN
WEST: CZECH, SLOVAK, POLISH, WENDISH etc.
EAST: RUSSIAN, UKRAINIAN, BELORUSSIAN
| OVA E MNOGU VAZEN DOKUMENT ZA NAS!!!! SEKOJA CEST ZA PRILOGOT "NAEMNIK"!!! POZDRAV
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brza
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 11:59 |
mozebi bash zatoa i se ,..tolku tromavi,...zatoa shto se tolku stari,...
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Patriotizmot e poslednoto skrivalishte na kriminalcite.-Albert Einstein Mokjta od sekogash privlekuvala lugje so nizok moral.-Albert Einstein
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borec
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 12:22 |
brza напиша:
mozebi bash zatoa i se ,..tolku tromavi,...zatoa shto se tolku stari,... |
A ti STO SI be inace??????
Изменето од borec - 06.Октомври.2007 во 12:24
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borec
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 13:17 |
The ancient Macedonians and their language
In Greece today people
start from an a priori assumption of the "Greek identity of Macedonia as an
obvious historical fact". Identifying the Greeks from the ethnic and
linguistic point of view with the ancient Macedonians, the current Greek regime
accuses "Skopje" of encroaching upon
the name Macedonia
and on a part of a cultural heritage which belongs only to the Greeks. In fact
this is nothing more than their conviction which for years now has been handed
out to young people in Greek schools from their earliest years and, most
recently, has been propagated throughout the entire world. The thesis of the
"Greek identity of Macedonia"
is not scientifically supportable.
We shall concentrate here on the earliest period.
In Greek scholarship, in numerous articles and books, the historical facts
which go against the thesis of a "Greek Macedonia" are passed over.
It is universally known that the classical Greek authors did not recognize the
Macedonians as their fellow-countrymen, calling them barbarians, and they
considered Macedonian domination in Greece as an alien rule, imported from
outside by the members of other tribes, the, as Plutarch says, allophyloi. This
historical right and this "Greek identity of Macedonia" have for a long
time been "proved" with the hypothesis that the ancient Macedonians
were a Doric tribe and their language a Doric dialect. Since this could not be
supported by definite facts from historical sources, and even less by archaeological
or linguistic proofs, not long ago official Greek scholarship discarded this
hypothesis. After the deciphering of Linear B in 1952, and more particularly
after 1970. when the luxurious edition of The History of the Greek Ethnos' was
published, Greek linguists and historians went far into the past to seek for
foundations for their thesis of a "Greek Macedonia". Although none of
the Mycenaean scholars in the world takes seriously their hypothetical
interpretations of Mycenaean texts, they nevertheless wish to discover in them
"proofs" that the ancient Macedonians were Indo-Europeans,
Proto-Hellenes, and that their language was the oldest, purest and most
conservative Greek dialect which at the same time cast a new light on the
oldest history of the Greek ethnos. This thesis reached its culmination at the
beginning of the 1980's when an unusual jubilee under the title of "4,000
Years of Greek Macedonia" was celebrated with great pomp. The theory thus
constructed has pretensions to scholarship but in fact starts out from
pre-suppositions which are not supported by a single historical fact.
The history of the ancient Macedonians over a lengthy period of 1,600 years
(2,200-600 B.C.) has been reconstructed on the basis of a prejudgement that
they could have been nothing other than Greeks. It should be noted that no text
whatsoever has been preserved in the ancient Macedonian language. Only about a
hundred glosses are known, from which it is not possible to reconstruct the
language. For more than 150 years these words have been a subject of
comparative linguistic studies, but quite a large number of these remain with
only a hypothetical explanation or even with no explanation at all. While
earlier on Doric forms were being sought in the Macedonian glosses, Greek
linguists are now investing great efforts in revealing archaic Aeolian.
Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenaean parallels. In fact the sparse linguistic material
is extremely complex and heterogeneous. It is clear that among the glosses
there are borrowings from Greek which in antique times was a language of great
prestige; the Greek words, however, have been adapted according to a different,
non-Greek phonetic system, [e.g.: Macedonian ade "sky", Greek aither
"air"; Mac. danos, Gk. thanatos "death"; Mac. keb(a)]le Gk.
kephale "head", etc.] But at the same time there are among the
glosses such words as are not found in Greek but have parallels in other
Indo-European languages, [e.g.: aliza "a white layer under the bark of a
tree", Slavonic e/oa xa; Mac. goda "innards", Gk. entera, Old
Indian Sanskrit gudam "intestine"; Mac. pella "stone",
Germ. Fels < + pel-sa, etc.] As proof of the cognation of the ancient
Macedonians with the Greeks a photograph has been presented of the inscription
from Vergina with Greek names. It should be mentioned that the majority of the
names of Macedonians from the ancient period are those of members of the ruling
dynasty or the aristocracy who consciously identified with the sphere of
Hellenic culture so that it is in no way strange that the names of the majority
of them are Greek. But alongside them are to be found Macedonian names which
cannot be explained by means of Greek etymology.
With regard to their religion which, it is maintained, was the same as that
of the Greeks, it should be borne in mind that the names of the divinities were
translated into Greek in accordance with their functions, just as the names of
the Greek divinities were altered by Roman authors writing in Latin: Jupiter in
place of Zeus,-Minerva for Athena, Venus for Aphrodite, etc. From an analysis
of the ancient Macedonian glosses it can be concluded that ancient Macedonian
was an Indo-European language distinct from Greek. The well-known French
Indo-European scholar A. Meje says that Greek is no closer to ancient Macedonian
than is any other Indo-European language. In his classification of the
Indo-European languages, J. Pokorny with complete justification puts Macedonian
together with Phrygian in his Indo-European etymological dictionary. In support
of the thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks it is stressed that
Philip 11 and Alexander the Great not only behaved as Greeks but were
incarnations of the idea of a united Greek state. The state which was ruled by
Philip 11 and Alexander the Great, who subdued the Greek city-states and
extended their frontiers to Central Asia, is
nowhere called a Greek state. Educated by the great Greek philosopher
Aristotle, Alexander highly valued classical Greek education and spread it to Central Asia. He abandoned, moreover, the dogma of the
"difference" between Greeks and barbarians. He introduced into his
policy a new spirit of the equality of all peoples, a spirit alien even to his
teacher, who had prepared him for leadership of the Greeks and mastery of the
barbarians. In accordance with his cosmopolitan ideology, Alexander showed an
extraordinary broadmindedness both towards the Greeks and towards the other
Balkan and Asiatic peoples. With this approach he laid the foundations of
Hellenism too, which was a mixture of Greek philosophic and educational ideas
with the cultural and religious understandings of the peoples of the east.
Alexander spread Hellenism in the Greek language, which he considered to be the
language of culture, but his mother tongue was not understood by the Greeks: a
fact of which there are explicit proofs.")
Greek scholarship passes over with an underestimation the historic fact of
the migration of peoples which fundamentally redrew the ethnic map of Europe, and especially of the Balkans, during the early
Byzantine period. Macedonia
has been represented as a buffer protecting Hellenism from the waves of the
barbarians throughout the centuries. The Slavonic element in Greece is either
denied or minimalized and it is well known that the Byzantine historian Constantine
Porphyrogenitus openly says that the whole of Hellas had been Slavicized - It
is likewise a known fact that the Slavonic tribes of the Ezerites and the
Milingi were independent in the Peloponnese in the 7th and 8th centuries and
did not pay tribute to Byzantium. If such facts are borne in mind, it is not
difficult to understand whether Macedonia
at that period was really a "bastion of Hellenism".
There have been protests in Greece
that we have not used toponyms from the Aegean part of Macedonia in
the forms which were given to them by decree after 1913 and more especially in
1926 because this has called Greek sovereignty into question. Demelios
Georgakas" notes that even today in the Peloponnese
no matter in which direction one moves one cannot go three miles without
encountering a Slavonic place-name. Similar statements have been made by Ph.
Malingudis. If there are so many Slavonic place-names in the Peloponnese, how
many more are there in the Aegean part of Macedonia where the Slavonic tribes
dwelt? And today Slavs have been living there for a period of 1,400 years. What
is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and
continuously in Macedonia
should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian. During the period
of Thucydides (11, 99) the population of Northern (Upper) Macedonia was distinguished from the Macedonian
conquerors; but even those from Upper Macedonia
were likewise called Macedonians. It is very unscholarly to speak of a
homogenization of just one nation in these regions of the Balkans.
Greek scholarship passes over with an underestimation the historic fact of
the migration of peoples which fundamentally redrew the ethnic map of Europe, and especially of the Balkans, during the early
Byzantine period.
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naemnik
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 16:03 |
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naemnik
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Испратена: 06.Октомври.2007 во 16:06 |
more on ....
Jozko Šavli, Matej Bor, Ivan Tomazic. VENETI: First Builders of European Community: Tracing the History and Language of Early Ancestors of Slovenes.
UPDATE ON VENETI What was the Mother Tongue of Alexander the Great?by Charles Bryant-Abraham, Ph. D. Fellow, The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies and Research Jerusalem, Israel
After submission of my review of VENETI to Sir Rodney Hartwell in June
1998, I came across a book in Athens of potential interest to the
subject of Proto - (West) Slavic presence in the Balkans
He Glossa tes Makedonias, he Archaia Makedonike kai he Pseudonyme Glossa ton Skopion,
"The Language of Macedonia, Old Macedonian and the so-called Language
of the Skopljites" (written in modern Greek with citations in classical
Greek and in Latin), by G. Khatsidakis, et al. (Athens, Greece: Olkos,
1993).
I will not review the book at this time for our Greek-reading
Augustans, other than to indicate broadly my impression that the seven
contributing writers have built a well-reasoned argument for the
essential Hellenism of Alexander the Great. One cannot, however, avoid
suspicion of a hidden political agenda to head off any future South
Slavic irredentism for the Macedonian-speaking hinterland of
Thessalonica. Unlike Veneti the book presents no linguistic evidence to shore up its premises and conclusions.
Granted, as A. I Thabores correctly points out (p. 194) in his chapter,"He
Hellenike Dialektos ton Archaion Makedonon kai ta Semerina
Neo-Hellenica Idiomata tes Makedonias (kai tes Alles Boreias
Helladas)," "The Greek Dialect of the Ancient Macedonians and
the Modern New Greek Dialects of Macedonia (and the Rest of Northern
Greece)": ". . . the names of their gods, the myths and the
mythical heroes, their personal names, the monumental and place names
and local items of their dialect ... are all essentially Greek." [my
translation] Yet I would query whether this might not be reflective of
an on-going, pervasive Greek cultural influence in the frontier zone
between Greece and the Balkan peoples reaching back to the pre-heroic
age.
The
passage that caught my eye and that I would bring to the attention of
our fellow Augustan, Dr. Jozko Šavli, and his co-authors of Veneti,
Prof. Matej Bor and Father Ivan Tomazic, occurs in Anna Panagiotou's
study (pp. 187-188),
"He Glossa ton Archaion Epigraphon tes Makedonias," "'The
Language of the Ancient Inscriptions of Macedonia." I urge Dr. Savli
and his colleagues to reexamine the known Macedonian inscriptions --
there are some 6,000 of themthrough the prism of Slovenian diachronic
dialectology, and I first pose the challenging question here in The
Augustan: Though thoroughly assimilated into the Greek culture and
language through the education of his teacher, Aristotle, can it be
that Alexander the Great himself emerged into world history from a
Proto-(West) Slavic, i.e., Venetic, family background?
I translate Ms. Panagiotou's reference to a passage in Curtius(2) Hist. Alex. Magni Maced., IV, I11.4.:
...
which narrates another event of the kingdom of Alexander... considered
as an indication that the Macedonian language was not a Greek dialect,
but a different language: the general Philotas was accused by one of
his compatriots of not feeling ashamed, " . . . Macedonatus, homines linguae suae per interpretem audire," ". . . born a Macedonian, to hear the men of his language through an interpreter," i.e., according to this passage, Philotas had need of translators in order to understand the mother tongue. Yet
in a curious way, this passage comes to contradict another by the same
author in the same document (VI.9.34-36.) Alexander asks if Philotas
will speak in the language of their fathers, "... Macedones ... de te indicaturi sunt, quero an patrio sermone sis apud eos usurus," "... the Macedonians who will judge you, I ask if you will use the language of [our] fathers with them,"
and elicited the response: "Praeter
Macedonas ... plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam percep-turus
arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu egisti, non ob aliud, credo
quam ut oratio tua intellegi posset a pluribus,"
"[Above and] beyond the Macedonians ... there are many present whom, I
feel, will more easily grasp the things I say if I use the same
language you did, for no other reason, I believe, than that your speech
might be understood by many."
This explanation caused the angry remarks of Alexander that Philotas neglects to speak in the language of their fathers: "Ecquid
videtis adeo etiam sermonis patrii Philotan toedere? Solus quippe
fastidit eum discere. Sed dicat sane utcumque ei cordi est, dum
memineritis aeque ilium a nostro more quam sermone abhorrere,"
"Have you ever seen Philotas reject the language of [our] fathers
heretofore? Indeed, he alone is averse to learning it. Let him then
say, however, it is in his heart, since you will remember that he is
opposed to our custom[s] as well as our language."
Ms.
Panagiotou's article proceeds to attempt to explain this passage as
referring to a northern Hellenic dialect so greatly at variance with
the contemporary Koine that it might just as well have been a foreign language. Her attempt falls short of convincing.
Now,
the work plan before us is not complex. The Macedonian inscriptions,
must be scrutinized anew by the trained and sensitive eyes of
Slavicists of the stature of the authors of Veneti. Let this task be undertaken at the earliest possible moment.
ENDNOTES:
- Charles Bryant-Abraham, PhD,
Fellow, The Jerusalem Center for
Biblical Studies and Research
Jerusalem, Israel
- Cf John C. Rolfe. Quintus Curtius (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1962.)
Rolfe states (p. xviii): "Curtius's principal source is Clitarchus, son
of Dinon (Pliny, NH. x (49) 136), who accompanied Alexander's
expedition and wrote a highly coloured account of it ... Curtius used
Clitarchus in a changed and contaminated form, perhaps through
Timagenes, whom he mentions in viii. 5.21 in connexion with Clitarchus
and Ptolemy ... He differs with Clitarchus in ix. 5.21 and follows
Ptolemy, censuring Clitarchus for carelessness or credulity. . ."
Rolfe adds (p. 3od): "The Historiae seem to be the work
of a rhetorician rather than of an historian. One of his principle aims
was to insert in his work brilliant speeches and romantic incidents.
Doubtless he wished to give a correct account, but his imperfect
knowledge of history and geography led him into many errors.
Rolfe is correct in pointing out (p. xxiv) that the chancellery
language of Macedonia was Greek: "For some generations the court
language was Attic Greek." Yet, even conservatively admitting
constraints on Curtius' accuracy, we must presume a kernel veracity for
the passages in question. That presumption is sufficient to warrant
reexamination of the Macedonian inscriptions by Venetologists.
http://www.prah.net/europaveneta/augustan/updateonveneti.htm
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