Испечати | Затвори го прозорот

Мавро Орбини Испечатено од: IDIVIDI forum Категорија: Македонија и Свет Име на форумот: Историја Опис на форумот: Александар, Кирил, Самоил, Мисирков, Делчев URL: http://forum.idividi.com.mk/forum_posts.asp?TID=9685 Датум на принтање: 12.Мај.2024 во 16:48 Верзија на софтверот: Web Wiz Forums 10.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com Тема: Мавро Орбини Постирано од: naemnik Наслов: Мавро Орбини Датум на внесување: 09.Октомври.2007 во 14:48 У једној цариградској библиотеци очувана је повеља о привилегијама које је Александар Велики, дванаесте године своје владе, поделио Илирима, односно ''племенитом роду Словена''. То постаје сасвим разумљиво ако узмемо у обзир да су Македонци Александра Великог били заправо Словени, говорили истим језиком којим и данас говоре становници Македоније. Уопште, Македонци, Трачани и Мези говоре истим, словенским језиком. Александра Великог многи сматрају Грком, али неоправдано. Разлог тој заблуди јесте у томе што су Грци, борећи се са народима Истока, били најпознатији народ тадашње Европе, исто као што данас Грци и Турци верују да су сви европски католички народи Французи. Међутим, Московски анали изричито потврђују да су Руси, односно Московити, били истог језика као и антички Македонци, који су, поред осталих земаља, владали Египтом 276 година. In one Tsarigrads(Constantinopel) library, there is a charter about the privilegies that Alexander the Great gave to Illyrians or " the nobel stock of Slavs" in the 12th year of his rule. Its becoming quite understandable if we know that macedonians of Alexander the Great were Slavs and they have spoken same language that todays inhabitants of macedonia speak. Alexander the Great is considered to be a Greek by many, but for no reason. The reason for that delusion lies in the fact that Greeks who fought people of east, were the most known people of the europe, the same way like nowdays Greeks and Turks belive that all european catholic people are French. Nevertheless, Moscow annals strictly confirm that Russians, or Moskovity spoke same language as Ancient Macedonians, that, beside other countires, ruled egypt for 276 years. theres a lot more in a book that u can download here: http://www.esnips.com/doc/c6187f89-93fd-4a85-ad21-b2ca32a6d522/%C3%90%C2%9A%C3%91%C2%80%C3%90%C2%B0%C3%91%C2%99%C3%90%C2%B5%C3%90%C2%B2%C3%91%C2%81%C3%91%C2%82%C3%90%C2%B2%C3%90%C2%BE-%C3%90%C2%A1%C3%90%C2%BB%C3%90%C2%BE%C3%90%C2%B2%C3%90%C2%B5%C3%90%C2%BD%C3%90%C2%B0--%C3%90%C2%9C%C3%90%C2%B0%C3%90%C2%B2%C3%91%C2%80%C3%90%C2%BE-%C3%90%C2%9E%C3%91%C2%80%C3%90%C2%B1%C3%90%C2%B8%C3%90%C2%BD - http://www.esnips.com/doc/c6187f89-93fd-4a85-ad21-b2ca32a6d522/Краљевство-Словена--Мавро-Орбин its written in serbian, hopefully u ll be able to read it..pozdrav Коментари: Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 09.Октомври.2007 во 15:27 filibe напиша: I am sure you will  and?????????? whats your problem???  are you dumb or something???? the translation available is in serb, the original is in Italian as you can see on the original cover......... Постирано од: jonecpa Датум на внесување: 10.Октомври.2007 во 20:17 Odlichna tema na koja mozhe dolgo da se debatira. Samiot fakt deka sekoja civilizacija vo istorijata na choveshtvoto zad sebe ostava tragi.  Ako Aleksandar bil toa shto go znaeme od istorijata logichno e zad sebe da ostavil normalno najgolema trag. Ako bil grk togash sigurno ne bil Veliki (poglednete go jazichnoto podrachje na grcite), a site znaeme deka vo Evropa najmnogubrojni se onie narodi koi gi smestuvame vo grupata koja denes ja narekuvame slovenska (33% vo Evropa vo Azija ne mi e poznato). Denes treba da mu obrneme vnimanie na otkritieto od kamenot na rozeta t.e. srednoto pismo demotkia za koe ima dokazi deka e napishano na jazikot na antichkite makedonci i edinstveno takvi zborovi se srekavaat samo vo slovenskte jazici. Bidejki od ovaa grupa na jazici nie zhiveeme na teritorijata na antichka makedonija logikata e jasna. Постирано од: filibe Датум на внесување: 10.Октомври.2007 во 20:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauro_Orbini How something written in 17 century could be proove of anything that took place almost 2000 y ago? http://www.maknews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1821  interesting discussion about rozeta stone ------------- Съединението прави силата Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 10:13 pajonec напиша: 1#(poglednete go jazichnoto podrachje na grcite), a site znaeme deka vo Evropa najmnogubrojni se onie narodi koi gi smestuvame vo grupata koja denes ja narekuvame slovenska (33% vo Evropa vo Azija ne mi e poznato). 2#Denes treba da mu obrneme vnimanie na otkritieto od kamenot na rozeta...  1# The problem of the Thracians: a new hypothesis The reconstruction of the prehistoric context in which the Thracians slowly emerge has been attempted several times, and lastly by Hoddinott (1981), but in my opinion without noticeable novelties. Even the most recent discoveries, in fact, confirm what we alread know: the Thracian power is just one of the many manifestations of the new stratified societies and of the new elites of a military and superegional type which characterize Chalcolithic and Bronze, and the formation of which was triggered by the incursions of the k*rgan groups and their successors, coming from the Asiatic steppes. In the new PCT vision, this twofold, but in itself meager result produces the following commentary: (A) we must keep in consideration that the immediate neighbors of the Thracians ancestors – whoever they were – were these intrusive k*rgan groups; and (B) in the light of the equation of the k*rgan people with the Turkic group, the existence of the Turkic Thrace of historical times, the Turkic original character of the Bulgarians, and the so many aspects of the close relationship bwetween Anatolia, the Agean Sea and the Balkans become much more relevant than we have suspected until now (see chapter III of Alinei 2000). A single example: the typical shape of the sica, the national weapon of the Thracians (a knife with a curved blade and a sharp point, similar to a zanna di cinghiale (cp. Plinius H.N. XII 1: “apri dentium sicas”, and see the illustration in Rich 1869), used by Thracian gladiators in Rome, is typical of centro-Asiatic metallurgy. Another commentary is triggered by Hoddinott’s conclusion, which identifies the earliest sure manifestation of the Thracians in the Bronze Age Carpatian culture of Otomani-Wietenberg (in Transylvania, Hungary, Eastern Slovakia). According to the most recent research, this culture represents a continuation of the Baden and Vučedol cultures, and through the latter, is connected to the steppe cultures (see above and cp. for example DP s.v. Vučedol). In the light of the preceding remarks, then, on one hand we could conclude that also Thracians underwent the same Turkic influences as most other Southern Slavic languages; on the other – as both Baden and Vučedol in the framework of the PCT can be read as Slavophone cultures, we could advance the hypothesis that the Thacianas were a Slavic group, which would have been subject to stronger Turkic influences than the other Slavic languages, and eventually extinguished. A final remark: Herodotus, as is known, describes the Thracians as the most numerous people after the Indians. Mallory comments that it is a “sad irony” they “have left no modern descendant of their language” (Mallory 1989, 72). But is it really so? First of all, if it is hard to admit that a numerous people might completely extinguish, it is even less likely that this pre-existing people would have left no traces in the archaeological record. And since, as we have seen, the demographic explosion of the Slavs must be placed in Neolithic, we could then advance the hypothesis that Thracians was the name that Herodotus gave to the Slavs, owing to the fact the Thracians were one of the most powerful and representative elites of Slavic speaking Eastern Europe, seen with Herodotus’ inevitably colonialist eyes. In a first approximation, then, the Thracians would appear to be a Southern Slavic geo-variational group, out of which came a Bronze age elite, first dominating then extinguished. This hypothesis could be further developed and refined in the light of the results of research on the Thracian language which, with the caution due to the scarcity of materials, can be so summarized: (1) Thracian is an IE satem language, like Baltic and Slavic; (2) as discovered by Trubačev (see above), Thracian place names show a surprising similarity with the Baltic ones; (3) in some cases, however, Thracian affinities seem stronger with Slavic: the Thr. place-name suffix -dizos e -diza, for example, to which the meaning of ‘fortress’ has been attributed on the basis of the comparison with Gr. teĩkhos ‘wall’ (IEW 244), has a much closer counterpart in the metathetic forms of OSl. ziždoã, zydati ‘to build’ zydŭ, zidŭ ‘wall’, than in the Baltic ones (also methatetic), meaning ‘to form’. And the vocalism of the Thr. river name Stry¤mōn and place name Stry¤mē seems closer to Pol. strumień ‘brook’ and OSlav. struja ‘stream’ than to Latv stràume ‘stream’ (IEW 1003). The most plausible hypothesis would be then that Thracian was a conservative type of Slavic, still preserving Baltic features and spoken by a peripheral group of Southern Slavs, somehow parallel to the Northern peripheral Balts (following the geolinguistic well-known rule, according to which the center innovates, and the periphery preserves). http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf - http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf and for Macedonia it is written: Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotæ are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Ætolia, by Thesproti, Cassopæi, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. (7, 7, 1)   2# Rozeta Stone prevodot ima greshka vo Metodologijata ili Pristapot kako se deshifrirani Zborovite.  Teshko e da se objasni, no za zhal Greshka e. Treba da se zaboravi toa. Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 10:16 filibe напиша: How something written in 17 century could be proove of anything that took place almost 2000 y ago? with common logic and references which you acctually lack both........ Постирано од: filibe Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 10:42 you are the one presenting  funny theory u r the 1 to proove it ------------- Съединението прави силата Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 11:02 filibe напиша: you are the one presenting  funny theory u r the 1 to proove it I dont have to prove nothing, it comes on to the Scientists. Try reading Alinei Continuitas, Curta from Oxford, and Tolaev etc, and than you may see what happens. I just quote what those High Level Scholars are writing, thus the prove is from them, not from me Here read something from your Bulgar Scholars too: The conclusion of an Bulgarian Scholar: There are single parallels with other Indo-European languages as the Tokharian ri (A), riye (B) 'a town' and the Thracian -bria. The general conclusion about the nature of the Thracian language is: The number of Thraco-Baltic (resp. Thraco-Balto-Slavic) parallels is impressive. Some isoglosses show Thracian was also related to German, on one hand, and to Indo-Iranian, on the other hand. Similar relations to "Pelasgian" (pre Greek) can be only supposed on the basis of phonetic similarities. There are almost no Phrygian parallels with Thracian. Having in mind this as well as the number of phonetical differences between the two languages, it can be assumed that the common Thraco-Phrygian sound shifts (the so called Lautverschiebungen) are not of decisive importance. Summing up, it can be said that in earlier times – probably in the III-th millennium BC, and before the realisation of the aforementioned sound shifts, – the Thracian language formed a close group with the Baltic (resp. Balto-Slavic), the Dacian and the "Pelasgian" languages. More distant were its relations with the other Indo-European languages, and especially with Greek, the Italic and Celtic languages, which exhibit only isolated phonetic similarities with Thracian; the Tokharian and the Hittite were also distant.   http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_9.html - http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_9.html so they will prove not me...... Постирано од: filibe Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 11:22 Pseudoscientific theories Two university professors in electrical engineering from Skopje, operating under the auspices of the government funded Faculty of Electrical Engineering in Skopje and presented to the official Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts, are claiming that the "Demotic" script is, in fact, a text related to the "old Slavonic Macedonian language" and is Ancient Macedonian. This contradicts all mainstream interpretations of the Stone and the mainstream scientific evidence that Ancient Macedonian was not a Slavic language and, not least, that Slavic speaking peoples did not reach the Balkan peninsula until the 6th Century CE. I guess they got their 15 minutes of fame. If they were serious about their 'discoveries' they would have published them and let the linguistic community criticise their work. Until their work is 'out there' and examined it's less than worthless. ------------- Съединението прави силата Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:11 filibe напиша: Pseudoscientific theories If they were serious about their 'discoveries' they would have published them and let the linguistic community criticise their work. Until their work is 'out there' and examined it's less than worthless. Alinei: http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html - http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html hey a bunch of unserious guys Curta: http://www.amazon.com/Making-Slavs-Archaeology-Cambridge-Medieval/dp/0521802024 - http://www.amazon.com/Making-Slavs-Archaeology-Cambridge-Medieval/dp/0521802024 Oxford, bunch of Idiots you said it ............... have a nice time disputing them Постирано од: Boogie Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:13 naemnik напиша: filibe напиша: Pseudoscientific theories If they were serious about their 'discoveries' they would have published them and let the linguistic community criticise their work. Until their work is 'out there' and examined it's less than worthless. Alinei: http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html - http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html hey a bunch of unserious guys Curta: http://www.amazon.com/Making-Slavs-Archaeology-Cambridge-Medieval/dp/0521802024 - http://www.amazon.com/Making-Slavs-Archaeology-Cambridge-Medieval/dp/0521802024 Oxford, bunch of Idiots have a nice time disputing them Не им давај вакви линкови на Бугарите бидејки ке земат да се објаснуваат со Бугарите дали или не се во право ------------- http://www.TattooArtists.org/boogie" rel="nofollow - Борбата продолжува,поробениот за слобода а слободниот за совршенство Постирано од: filibe Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:43 http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html - http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html Quote me one of these gyus supporting this theory And read what Slovak thinks about this particular translation on the rozeta stone.Cause whith this translation aside all u have is wishful thinking ------------- Съединението прави силата Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:47 filibe напиша: http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html - http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html Quote me one of these gyus supporting this theory And read what Slovak thinks about this particular translation on the rozeta stone.Cause whith this translation aside all u have is wishful thinking are you dumb or desperate or you dont read what I post you....... I already said 3 times at least that Slovak is right about the assertion on Roseta Stone........ So whats your problem.......  I agree that Roseta Stone attempt is inaccurate but that does not mean that the outdated Slav Theory is true Постирано од: filibe Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:49 Because this stone is one and only evidence u can "touch" rest is speculations and assumptions ------------- Съединението прави силата Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:50 filibe напиша: Because this stone is one and only evidence u can "touch" rest is speculations and assumptions now you are hanging in a wishful thinking ......... you know what buzz off you have lost my interest, inmature and playing dumb in one package..... go teach them about their wishful thinking http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html - http://www.continuitas.com/workgroup.html Постирано од: filibe Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:52 keer on living in ur dreamworld then ------------- Съединението прави силата Постирано од: Boogie Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 12:53 You too ------------- http://www.TattooArtists.org/boogie" rel="nofollow - Борбата продолжува,поробениот за слобода а слободниот за совршенство Постирано од: m__g__ Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 13:05 Boogie напиша: You too проздравче за фена на U2 My hands are tied My body bruised, shes got me with Nothing to win and Nothing left to lose With or without you With or without you ------------- Go ahead! Make my day! Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 13:15 filibe напиша: keer on living in ur dreamworld then Dream your Bulgaro-Slav dream too. Read carefully and you'll see which model is based on heavy assumptions... Here is a small amount of the evidence, extracted from the Introductory part...in short Alinei says: "If the demonstration of continuity, as James Mallory has had to admit, is "the archaeologists' easiest pursuit” (Mallory 1989, 81)), then it follows: (1) that also for the question of European origin, the easiest working hypothesis is the continuity model, and no other alternative; (2) that consequently the burden of proof now lies on the (Chalcolithic or Neolithic) invasionist's shoulders, and not on the anti-invasionist's; (3) that as long as no alternative theory provides irrefutable counter-evidence, the Paleolithic Continuity can be considered as the winning theory." So the archaeological record shows a continuity. And the k*rgan and Neolithic theory are based on invasions around 4000 -25000 BC which should be present in the archaeological record. Thus the continuity theory fits best in the archaeological record...that is to the archaeological facts...or empirical evidence...as you wish. http://www.continuitas.com/intro.html - http://www.continuitas.com/intro.html Постирано од: naemnik Датум на внесување: 11.Октомври.2007 во 13:26 filibe напиша: Because this stone is one and only evidence u can "touch" By the way not the only one The city of Europos was founded on the Euphrates River in Syria at the end of the 4th century B.C. (312 B.C) by the Seleucids, a Macedonian family from the Macedonistic period, as just one of probably many trading centers and garrison towns on the major commercial and communication route connecting India and the Mediterranean. Its function was like that of any other Seleucid frontier town: to ensure the entrenchment of Macedonian power in the region. Europos population under the Seleucids consisted of two major groups: wealthy land-owning Balkan colonists who were to maintain the city’s security and act as representatives of the Macedonian way of life, and indigenous Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia. Additionally, small sectors of the population were consistently in flux, with a stream of merchants, soldiers and other officials, as well as civilians, all using the city as a stop in their travels. Because of its geography and the very nature of its inhabitants, then, Europos enjoyed a polyglot, urban, and religiously complex culture. Indeed, evidence suggests that the citizens of Europos mixed freely together. Many Balkan colonists, for example, married or employed their non-Balkan neighbors, and in some families one could find not only Macedonian names, but also Persian and local Semitic ones, as well. Furthermore, because Semitic religions were tolerated under Seleucid rule, the spiritual life of the city was marked early on by the worship of both Western and Eastern deities (sometimes fused together). http://bp3.blogger.com/_ofsKG4Jlu5I/Rw5sB8LwQUI/AAAAAAAAAGE/a4hjzOm6c48/s1600-h/page2.jpg"> Постирано од: Каснакоски Датум на внесување: 21.Април.2009 во 15:07 СРПСКА КЊИЖЕВНА ЗАДРУГА Основана 1892 године МАВРО ОРБИН КРАЉЕВСТВО СЛОВЕНА БЕОГРАД 1968 ЧЛАНОВИ РЕДАКЦИЈЕ ФРАЊО БАРИШИЋ. • РАДОВАН САМАРЏИЋ • СИМА ЋИРКОВИЋ Превео са италијанског ЗДРАВКО ШУНДРИЦА http://www.scribd.com/doc/6004188/Mavro-OrbinKraljevstvo-Slovena - http://www.scribd.com/doc/6004188/Mavro-OrbinKraljevstvo-Slovena Мавро Орбини пишува за Далмација, Хрватска, Босна, Србија, Рашка и Бугарија. Кога пишува за Македонци мисли изклучиво на античките Македонци. Постирано од: Boogie Датум на внесување: 21.Април.2009 во 16:20 А тебе другар да не ти е па лично да ти кажал - јас како што слушнав кога пишува за Бугари мисли на ТуркоМонголи,ти тоа си го слушнал ли,да не ти кажал другар ти за ТуркоМонголите нешто или само со Антички Македонци се занимава ------------- http://www.TattooArtists.org/boogie" rel="nofollow - Борбата продолжува,поробениот за слобода а слободниот за совршенство Постирано од: Каснакоски Датум на внесување: 21.Април.2009 во 19:49 Многу модератори, многу модерирање. Што му беше лошото на цитатот од Мавро Орбини? Дали ќе го избришете или не, така знаел човекот, така напишал. Постирано од: Boogie Датум на внесување: 22.Април.2009 во 00:25 Како твој другар јасно ни е што энае,него како историчар што энае тоа е друг муабет ------------- http://www.TattooArtists.org/boogie" rel="nofollow - Борбата продолжува,поробениот за слобода а слободниот за совршенство Постирано од: Каснакоски Датум на внесување: 22.Април.2009 во 18:35 Тоа што го знае Мавро Орбини го знае од изворите а тие го претставуваат Самуил како Бугарин, ама не од темата Бугарија туку како цар на државата Бугарија. „Георгије Кедрен, приповедајући тадашња Самуилова пустошења по Римском Царству, овако говори: ''Бугарин Самуило био је ратоборан човек и никад није могао мировати. Узнемиравао је цели Запад својим пљачкашким походима; опустошио је не само Тракију и Македонију с местима око Солуна већ је уништио и Тесалију, Грчку и Пелопонез; поред тога, заузео је много градова и утврђења, међу којима је био најзнаменитији град Лариса; и више пута је нанео пораз Римљанима, потукавши до ногу њихове војске.'' Довде говори Кедрен.“ КОМЕНТАР Овде Орбин дословно цитира византијског хроничара Георгија Кедрина. На следећим страницама га такође репродукује са више или мање скраћивања. Постирано од: Boogie Датум на внесување: 22.Април.2009 во 19:55 cercetator напиша: Тоа што го знае Мавро Орбини го знае од изворите а тие го претставуваат Самуил како Бугарин, ама не од темата Бугарија туку како цар на државата Бугарија. „Георгије Кедрен, приповедајући тадашња Самуилова пустошења по Римском Царству, овако говори: ''Бугарин Самуило био је ратоборан човек и никад није могао мировати. Узнемиравао је цели Запад својим пљачкашким походима; опустошио је не само Тракију и Македонију с местима око Солуна већ је уништио и Тесалију, Грчку и Пелопонез; поред тога, заузео је много градова и утврђења, међу којима је био најзнаменитији град Лариса; и више пута је нанео пораз Римљанима, потукавши до ногу њихове војске.'' Довде говори Кедрен.“ КОМЕНТАР Овде Орбин дословно цитира византијског хроничара Георгија Кедрина. На следећим страницама га такође репродукује са више или мање скраћивања. Незнам која ти е поентата со фалслификувањето но така не пишува во книгата јас што ја имам туку пишува „Георгије Кедрен, приповедајући тадашња Самуилова пустошења по Римском Царству, овако говори: ''Македонац Самуило био је ратоборан човек и никад није могао мировати. Узнемиравао је цели Запад својим пљачкашким походима; опустошио је не само Тракију и Македонију с местима око Солуна већ је уништио и Тесалију, Грчку и Пелопонез; поред тога, заузео је много градова и утврђења, међу којима је био најзнаменитији град Лариса; и више пута је нанео пораз Римљанима, потукавши до ногу њихове војске.'' Довде говори Кедрен.“ КОМЕНТАР Овде Орбин дословно цитира византијског хроничара Георгија Кедрина. На следећим страницама га такође репродукује са више или мање скраћивања. ------------- http://www.TattooArtists.org/boogie" rel="nofollow - Борбата продолжува,поробениот за слобода а слободниот за совршенство Постирано од: Каснакоски Датум на внесување: 23.Април.2009 во 07:07 Само еднаш Орбини спомнува „Македонац“ за Басилиј Први. Уште пред Борис Македонците го ширеле христијанството во Бугарија. „Поред тога, заузео је опседнути град Једрене. Одатле је повео у Бугарску много хришћана, међу којима су били епископ Манојло, отац и мајка Василија који је доцније постао цар под именом Македонац, и сам Василије, који је тада био дете. Док су ови хришћани боравили тамо, обратили су у Христову веру много Бугара, те су расејали свуда по Бугарској хришћанску науку. КОМЕНТАР Овде се Орбин опет враћа Настављачу Теофановом. Влахерне су позната палата у Цариграду.“

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