"Македонија" името било географски поим!?

Бугари - "Татари" от Азия, Гърци - "Египтяни" от Африка, само горди "антички македонци" отсекогаш биле тука? От кай са паднали - от небето? Али от на Сашо Мегало Педеро разпраниот гъз?

Вистината не се брани со лажни докази!

Се фаташ за сламка да "докажеш" дека имало "мачедонци"

Една умна жена, вистинска лейди еднаш кажува: "Ако треба да доказувам, дека сум лейди, со сигурност не сум ...."

И що сос тия гени? Ти да не си расист? Али се имаш за супериорен спрема другите раси / нации?

Vladimir88 напиша: И јас не сум расист, само сакам да ги нема грците од Балканов се да ги исчистат заедно со вас татарите.. Вие сте исклучоци знаеш...изроди.

На тоа дето го сакаш му се вика геноцид...

Подбуждане към расова и религиозна омраза си е криминал в белите държави, не знам как е в Македония...

Vladimir88 напиша: Само ми одат на нерви грците што се прават чистокрвни антички.... Кога немаат ништо со античките грци..

Досущ како "македонците"...

Vladimir88 напиша: Борза тврди дека не се ни замарале со Хеленизам и дека биле со посебна култура.........

Нямам докази, али твърдам

За овой Борза ли сборуваш, античкиот?


Quote:

During medieval and modem times, Macedonia was known as a Balkan region inhabited by ethnic Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Serbs, Bulgarians, Jews, and Turks.

Quote:

The emergence of a Macedonian nationality is an offshoot of the joint Macedonian and Bulgarian struggle against Hellenization. With the establishment of an independent Bulgarian state and church in the 1870s, however, the conflict took a new turn. Until this time the distinction between “Macedonian” and “Bulgarian” hardly existed beyond the dialect differences between standard “eastern” Bulgarian and that spoken in the region of Macedonia.

Quote:

Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émi-grés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity.

Quote:

…the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians.

Quote:

The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one. They reside in a territory once part of a famous ancient kingdom, which has borne the Macedonian name as a region ever since and was called ”Macedonia” for nearly half a century as part of Yugoslavia. And they speak a language now recognized by most linguists outside Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece as a south Slavic language separate from Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian, and Bulgarian. Their own so-called Macedonian ethnicity had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation “Macedonia” and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival.

Quote:

It is difficult to know whether an independent Macedonian state would have come into existence had Tito not recognized and supported the development of Macedonian ethnicity as part of his ethnically organized Yugoslavia. He did this as a counter to Bulgaria, which for centuries had a historical claim on the area as far west as Lake Ohrid and the present border of Albania.

“Macedonia Redux”, Eugene N. Borza, The Eye Expanded: Life and the Arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity, Frances B. Titchener and Richard F. Moorton, Jr., editors

—————————————————————————-

Only recently have we begun to clarify these muddy waters by
revealing the Demosthenean corpus for what it is: oratory designed to sway public opinion and thereby to formulate public policy. That elusive creature, Truth, is everywhere subordinate to Rhetoric; Demosthenes’ pronouncements are no more the true history of the period than are the public statements of politicians in any age.

[E.Borza, "On the shadows of Olympus..." pages 5-6]

This larger Macedon included lands from the crest of the Pindus range to the plain of Philippi and the Nestos River. Its northern border lay along a line formed by Pelagonia, the middle Axios valley and the western Rhodopi massif. Its southern border was the Haliac- mon basin, the Olympus range and the Aegean, with the Chalcidic peninsula as peripheral… We thus have a conception of Macedonia both more and less extensive than Hammonds’s -less in that IT REDUCES EMPHASIS ON THE north western LANDS that lie today WITHIN THE YUGOSLAV STATE, but more in that it takes into greater account the territory east of the Axios. It is a definition BASED on the political DEVELOPMENT of the MACEDONIAN STATE OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME,…”

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990), pp.29-31 >

Quote:

The macedonians themselves may have originated from the same population pool that produced other Greek peoples.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990), page 84

Quote:

but that the argive context is mythic, perhaps a bit of fifth-century BC propaganda.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 80

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There is NO reason to deny the Macedonians’ own tradition about their early kings and the migrations of the Makedones.


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The basic story as provided by Herodotus and Thucydides minus the interpolation of the Temenid connection, UNDOUBTEDLY reflects the Macedonians’ own traditions about their early history

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) Page 84

Quote:

The memory of these early times may be preserved in a fragment of Hesiod; ” From the warloving king Hellen sprang Dorus and Xouthous [father of Ion] and Aeolus who took delight in horses”. Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the “northwest” Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of Molossian or Epirotic tribes.

“In the shadow of Olympus..” By Eugene Borza, page. 62

Quote:

the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus , and parts of Pelagonia;”

“In the shadow of Olympus..” By Eugene Borza, page 74

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The wester mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus)

“In the shadow of Olympus..” By Eugene Borza, page 98

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Whether it was a rude patois that was the dialect of farmers and hillsmen or a style of speaking (like “Laconic”) is impossible to know from this scant, late evidence. In any case we cannot tell if it was Greek.


<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 92

Quote:

It is only to say that there is an insufficient sample of words to show exactly what the macedonian language was. It must also be emphasized that this is not to say that it was not Greek; It is only to suggest that, from the linguists’ point of view, it is as yet impossible to know


<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990)page 93

Quote:

although the thracians continued to produce coins well into the 470s and 460s and although they ADOPTED some of Alexander’s innovations (such as inscriptions in Greek), the obverse designs of their issues never achieved the quality of workmanship of their macedonian counterparts. They remain “Thracian” in style, whereas the Macedonian coinage is SIMILAR in its execution to the coins of the Greek world.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990), pp.129 >\

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The argead Macedonians were now in contact with some of the macedonians of the western mountains, who were FORCED to accept a vassalage with which they never were comfortable. It is clear that these tribes retained their own royal houses and considerable local autonomy…..But for at least the next century and a half, the links between lower and upper Macedonians were tenuous at best.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 124

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Despite the fact that Thucydides (2.99.3.6) could now call the whole area “Macedonia” the Argeads were NOT able to integrate their highland kinsmen into the kingdom until the reign of Philip II, and even then with only mixed success.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 124

Quote:

Whatever the case, there is insufficient information to know whether the army of Alexander I, who was the first king tentively to ATTEMPT an unification fo the Macedonians

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 126

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it becomes clear that the Argeadae were notoriously quarrelsome, and that any unity that the Macedonian kingdom might posses would have to depend upon the strenght that could be excercised from the throne.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 135

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Philip managed to incorporate the cantons of western macedonia into the greater Macedonians kingdom on a permanent basis. These mountainous regions had been virtually independent - and OFTEN HOSTILE - until Philip’s reign, and it was among his first necessities to stabilize the frontier.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 135

Quote:

As for the rivalries among Macedonian families, these are unclear until the time of Philip II, and even here most of the evidence points to a hostility between the houses of western Macedonia and the Argeadae.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 237

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Their daughter, who would be the half-sister of Alexander the Great and, later the wife of Cassander, was appropriately named Thessalonike, to commemorate Philip’s victory in Thessaly. In 315 Cassander founded at or near the site of ancient Therme the great city that still bears her name.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 220

Quote:

It is difficult to imagine that Philip’s policy toward Greece was an end in itself. Once his Balkan borders had been secured his general course seems to have been directed toward the establishment of stability in Greece, NOT CONQUEST.

<E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 230



Eugene N. Borza

Изменето од makenot - 23.Април.2008 во 10:54

makenot напиша: ...За овой Борза ли сборуваш, античкиот?

Vladimir88 напиша: ...Не за ова зборува.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh6ZV2qUGjk

Е како не?

Нели ти го постира овой линк:


http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/NoHellenization.pdf

Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander’s Court Makedonika 1995 (pp.149-58) by Eugene Borza

Е па и яз негови податоци постирав:

makenot напиша: Quote: The macedonians themselves may have originated from the same population pool that produced other Greek peoples. <E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990), page 84 Quote: The emergence of a Macedonian nationality is an offshoot of the joint Macedonian and Bulgarian struggle against Hellenization. With the establishment of an independent Bulgarian state and church in the 1870s, however, the conflict took a new turn. Until this time the distinction between “Macedonian” and “Bulgarian” hardly existed beyond the dialect differences between standard “eastern” Bulgarian and that spoken in the region of Macedonia. Quote: Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émi-grés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity. Quote: …the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. Quote: The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one. They reside in a territory once part of a famous ancient kingdom, which has borne the Macedonian name as a region ever since and was called ”Macedonia” for nearly half a century as part of Yugoslavia. And they speak a language now recognized by most linguists outside Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece as a south Slavic language separate from Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian, and Bulgarian. Their own so-called Macedonian ethnicity had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation “Macedonia” and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival. Quote: It is difficult to know whether an independent Macedonian state would have come into existence had Tito not recognized and supported the development of Macedonian ethnicity as part of his ethnically organized Yugoslavia. He did this as a counter to Bulgaria, which for centuries had a historical claim on the area as far west as Lake Ohrid and the present border of Albania. “Macedonia Redux”, Eugene N. Borza

Оти не ги прифаташ и тия податоци?

Vladimir88 напиша: ..Борза тврди дека и грците немаат никаква поврзаност со македонците Вика дека Македонците не биле Грци..

Дали читаш или само копи/пейст?

The macedonians themselves may have originated from the same population pool that produced other Greek peoples. <E.N.Borza, “On the Shadows of Olympus” (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990), page 84

Учи английски, Владе, че стана смешен вече...

Ако читаш, айде преведи това що значи на "македонцки":

The macedonians themselves may have originated from the same population pool that produced other Greek peoples.

Vladimir88 напиша: Читам он тврди дека Македонците воопшто не биле Грци

Vladimir88 напиша: Македонците можеби потекнувааат од истата популација која ги произвела другите грчки луѓе..

schizophrenia + diarrhea - не ти е лесно Владе

Верно се усра днеска
айде бегай
земи си Утрински со тебе у ВЦ, да читаш за Мисирков - Македонский Болгарин